The Museum of Modern Art is in the process of opening its big fall shows, and among these is a retrospective in the film department of the Hong Kong director Johnnie To. To has been called “one of the great virtuosos of the gangster film” by the New York Times. While this description is accurate, it’s also as reductive as it would be if you applied it to Martin Scorsese. His offbeat fare, like Sparrow (2008), is only superficially concerned with crime and just as interested in lipstick on a cigarette, passed from one person to another in slow motion. We caught up with curator La Frances Hui, who organized the retrospective with Dave Kehr, to hear more about how it all came together.
Johnnie To’s movies have so much diversity within them, but superficially they tend to deal in pulp. How did a distinguished institution like MoMA decide to stage a retrospective like this?
The late film scholar David Bordwell, who is a teacher to nearly everyone who ever studied film as an art form, wrote an entire book (Planet Hong Kong) to examine the Hong Kong film industry as a popular cinema and artistic tradition. While acknowledging Hong Kong films can be “sentimental, joyous, rip-roaring, bloody and bizarre,” he remarks that “these outrageous entertainments harbor remarkable inventiveness and careful craftsmanship. They are Hong Kong’s most important contribution to global culture. The best of them are not only crowd-pleasing but also richly and delightfully artful.”
This description is the very definition of To’s cinema—many of his films play to popular sentiments, but there’s no shortage of innovative vision and personal signature. He is so confident with his artistry and creativity that there’s no need to worry about what is high or low art. It is not only appropriate but important for MoMA to celebrate To as an artist.
Johnnie To has been remarkably prolific, with some sources saying he has as many as seventy-five director credits. What’s your count of his credits, and how did you go about winnowing down the films for this retrospective?
If you ask To, he won’t be able to tell you how many films he has directed. He’s made a lot of films—typical of a successful talent who worked through the golden time of Hong Kong cinema when films were made at breakneck speed. We say with certainty that he has directed over seventy films. There are films that he partially or even majorly directed but is only credited for his role as a producer.
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Dave and I knew that we would have to include films of all genres in the retrospective to properly present a multifaceted career. The sad truth is that the director and his production house, Milkyway Image, don’t control the screening rights of his films. We spent a lot of time investigating the rights and availability of screening materials. Thankfully we were able to include all the essential films.
Where does he fit into the broader story of Hong Kong cinema?
To is an unmatched representative figure of Hong Kong cinema not simply because of the size of his output and his longevity in the industry but also because of his versatility and unwavering commitment to Hong Kong. Hong Kong cinema has suffered a decline since the late ’90s due to shifting economic and political conditions. To is the only established director who is still devoted to the sights and sounds of Hong Kong, including the Cantonese language. All the others have migrated north to make films in Mandarin for a much bigger market. I see To as an embodiment of faith and perseverance. In fact, watching his films is a walk down the memory lane of Hong Kong cinema. The “who’s who” in the industry are represented: Chow Yun Fat, Andy Lau, Maggie Cheung, Michelle Yeoh, Stephen Chow and Anita Mui, among countless others.
We live in a city where the mayor and his beloved NYPD are at the center of a federal corruption investigation, in a country where many fear the triggering effects of depicted violence. What is it like to watch Johnnie To in 2024?
The criminal world might be featured in Johnnie To’s films, but graphic violence is not his focus. Instead, he is more interested in the depiction of brotherhood, loyalty and the psychology of power struggles and survival. In his films, thugs, cops and bankers can all be corrupt. He explores the interplay of chance and motivation and highlights the force of fate and destiny in the telling of stories about anti-heroes.
You interviewed the director a few weeks ago after a screening of Exiled. What is he like in person?
Johnnie spoke three times at MoMA on the first three days of the retrospective. He’s a super lively and engaging speaker and was especially animated when he shared his process and method. It was incredible to hear him talk about shooting without a screenplay. He would get into action with his cast and crew simply because financing or, as in the case of The Mission, a shopping mall suddenly became available. There were no storyboards and shot lists at all. When he gets on the set, he just suddenly knows what to do. His natural instinct as an image maker is simply remarkable.
Do you have a favorite Johnnie To movie? Or a top three? What aspects of his work do you enjoy the most personally?
My favorites, in no particular order, are: Exiled, The Mission, Election, PTU and Sparrow. I am especially interested in how To designs spatial and temporal architecture within action scenes. There is a peculiar presence of stillness within scenes of chaos and mayhem, as if harmony and disorder are completely compatible. Hong Kong cinema has a rich tradition of action films, such as kung fu, wuxia and contemporary urban action films. Those featuring legends like Lau Kar-Leung, Jackie Chan and Sammo Hung emphasize the clarity of body movements since the action stars must show off their skills. To’s action scenes are noticeably abstract. It often feels like we are looking at an action painting with intricate geometric lines formed by intriguing placement of actors and moving parts. He’s more interested in the overall graphic formation and the psychological dynamics on display. It is riveting to watch his action choreography.
The “Chaos and Order: The Way of Johnnie To” film series is at MoMA through October 13.
